Roger Dean's Artwork and Avatar - You decide

Roger Dean did artwork for Yes and a number of other bands in the 1970s/1980s.

Here are some examples. You decide if you think Avatar is derivative. He certainly didn't get any credit in the film for this.

Cool.
I'm reserving judgement.

Maybe it was an inspiration rather than a direct copy? Or maybe it's a coincidence...?

Avatar is derivative is pretty much every possible way. This doesn't surprise me at all. My comment to my friend who I went to see it with yesterday was that it was very pretty, but I think I've seen that story about 12 times before.

I understood it to have been acknowledged as a strong inspiration (whether it was credited in the film or not).

No credit - we watched for it, fully aware of the Dean artwork. (He's a cool guy.)

If you change the skin tone and remove the armor, there's alot of the Atevi depicted by Whelan on the covers of C. J. Cherryh's Foreigner series...the size, the faces, the hair style...

Most of the great fantasy artists get borrowed in this way - their art books, in the film studios, are literally worn out and dog-eared, with sticky notes all over the pages.

If wishes were heard, these films would HIRE the original minds that created those inspirational images in the first place - but - this is Hollywood. Too often that is not the case.

Don and I were pleased to see, at least, that Wayne Barlow was on the conceptual team for this film, and credited in full.

I guess one could argue that the last picture, on the right, is derivative from many Chinese painters. I, too, wish the original creative people could get their due credit. And I do recognize that creativity is all about putting together in a new way, stuff that already has been seen.

Rodger Dean was the first person to ever draw floating mountains and trees?

I'm not convinced by this at all. All art is inspired to some degree or other from works that went before. The question is to what degree.

#8

This inspiration for this thread: a couple of days ago, my wife pointed out to me a quote from Cameron in Entertainment Weekly. When asked "Where did (you) get the idea for the floating mountains? Was that from a Yes album cover?" His reply began: "It might have been." So I went around the web, and found a lot of people wondering the same thing and then thought I'd ask the Dragon folks what they thought.

Since Roger Dean is still living, it's up to him to decide whether or not he is bothered by this 'might have been'. I'm only interested in knowing whether or not people here in the Dragon noticed the similarity as well.

Yes I can see the similarities - but then any artwork with floating mountains is going to retrospectively seem similar.

Should the film artists acknowledge the source of their inspiration if they're aware of it - probably yes, and in this case they haven't. But the question very rapidly becomes how much should Dean have been paid as 'inspirational artist'? And then every other artist online and paper who's ever drawn something similar would also claim ... which rapidly becomes unworkable.

#10 I personally believe, for the "paid" question - the answer (for me) is "not at all" unless works of art are 'lifted directly' or so heavily derivative in a way that means the 'lifter' had to do far less 'sweat' work, or spend less money, or is really profiting because of the core ideas of another. I don't think anyone would claim Avatar has achieved a box office take of $1.6B (so far) because of the floating islands. They're just a fun thing to see, that makes the planet more 'alien'. And lots of money was paid to create them. So I don't think Roger is ethically 'owed cash'. But, if one or more of the people on the film remembered their Yes album covers as a kid - somehow, in either the press, or in the extras with the home DVD/Blu-ray release, mentioning it would be more than appropriate, it would be expected.

That's a far less demanding statement than "derivitive" in your OP, and one I certainly agree with - a namecheck would be expected. But if I was Dean's IP lawyer (IANAL) if I saw the namecheck I'd then be asking for the money. And if I'd seen the Yes album covers as a kid, and also seen various other covers, and fantasy posters, books and online images over the years, how could you namecheck them all? or say which influenced you to what degree? So I'm not surprised that there hasn't been recognition, and I wouldn't expect it in other cases. Have other films acknowledged their "inspirational artists"?

All creatives are inspired by what they see, done before them.

If you have ever watched conceptuals being done for a film (and talked to the artists) -- (and I have done both) -- you will see that the final form of a film is a melding of many minds - the cream of all the concepts contributed get melted together until the director has the coolest result.

I think there's a fine line - and an ethical one.

When books by living artists are set out on the table, being TREATED as conceptual art - from which the film derived its idea quite substantially, but then altered it - that is, effectively, what they'd have done with a "conceptual" painter (paid and credited) - the painting would be "available" to the production crew, who finalize the look of the film.

If the artist is dead, or derives from a long tradition or school that is centuries old - (old Chinese painters) there is nothing to argue, ethically.

If the artist is living, and has done a substantial body of work for which most of their generation of peers and people RECOGNIZE for their style (aka.Roger Dean and Michael Whelan) I feel, instead of taking their books and spring-boarding off them - why NOT hire the living artist - get the mind behind that - to be on the conceptual team? since effectively, they have provided the "look" or the foundation for it, to be developed further.

Some (and they are few) directors do hire the original mind behind the art - and pay and credit.

Many others just hand the artist's work over to their crew and shrug.

I'm no lawyer, I'm not anyone to point a finger...but if you want a list of films and artists that were NOT credited for (whatever your term) for major inspirational works that affected the look of a film or character - message me.

If you what to see actual conceptual art for two animated motion pictures, Don Maitz (my husband, for those who didn't know) was hired to work on both Ant Bully and Jimmy Neutron, Boy Genius. Some of his conceptual art work is on his website, displayed there with legit. permission. (http://www.paravia.com/DonMaitz) John Davis, who directed both films, was one of those who believed in going to the original artists who inspired him and hiring them to do what they did best.

I have heard the buzz, from inside, that, some film directors will take what they please, and just set aside a budget to cover law suits - on the theory, fight it out, and only pay if you have to. I have never been involved with such a suit, but have heard industry pros (writers and artists, both) talk of it.

I HAVE seen artists leave portfolio pieces on file - and have THAT directly swiped. No credit. And I mean, directly copied....major film, major director. Very sorry behavior. The huge budgets of these monster films could certainly afford the use fee, for such things.

As a finish - I loved Avatar as one of the most visually beautiful films I have ever experienced...made me wish not to live HERE anymore, grin.

Don and I both can always "see" the influence of the major fantasy artists written all over the films released today.

As an aside, Jackson HIRED Alan Lee and John Howe - who had both done distinctive work in that vein (Lord of the Rings) before the film. Their works influenced the look of everything - right up front, credited, and paid.

Thanks, Janny, for a very informative post. Unfortunately, no surprise that some in the industry are very casual about "ripping off" those who might not have the clout to fight and damage the product.

Want to see more stunningly "coincidental" artwork?

Check out these side by side screenshots of Avatar, and Delgo, an animated film from a few years back.

http://img.denihilation.com/delgovatar.html

How about this fun mashup of Avatar and Ferngully: The Last Rainforest?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D-SVpZrnF34

#16 That mashup is hilarious :D

While we were watching the movie, my daughter leaned over and whispered, "Fern Gully." What was in my mind was the movie with Sean Connery, Medicine Man.

Fern Gully, Pocahontas, Medecine Man, Dances with Wolves... The list is not short.

#16
Avatar is just Ferngully for grown ups. The similarities are too numerous to even list. But, I did enjoy it.